It has been interesting in the Totally Locally office over the past day or so.
Chris and Beth went to a meeting with 2 consultants from Sainsbury’s and Lynne Midwinter (Todmorden Business Association, Totally Locally & Incredible Edible) to discuss Sainsbury’s opening up a store in Todmorden and the potential affect on the town.
Whilst I was not at the meeting and therefore can’t comment on it, it was clear that passions were running high on their return.
For Chris, it manifests itself in a massive flash of passion, creativity and thought.
Talk of taking on supermarkets, stopping the build and saving the town from slipping from what it has recently achieved (a model English market town) were thrown around on the office.
For Beth, with her background in town planning, she put forward the fact that there is a good possibility of the scheme going ahead (despite her objections), and with her logical mind, she was working out how to make best of the situation if it happened.
Therefore for me, it is my role in these situations to take on the mantle of Devil’s Advocate in these situations. Is it really Totally Locally’s fight? What about the jobs created? What about the convenience for shoppers? Will the new store lift the profile of the town?
My stance was not helped by the fact that the representatives of Sainsbury’s went straight out of the meeting with Totally Locally into a Council Meeting and, as fed back to us by slightly surprised attendees, intimated that they had the backing from Totally Locally. Whilst we are flattered that they think that our campaign and brand is strong enough to influence people, we can quite clearly state that we did not give our backing to the plan.
So we then talked over this for well over an hour and while we did not resolve every detail, question and hypothetical situation we were left with the following:
QUESTION: Do we (Totally Locally) endorse a Sainsbury’s in Todmorden?
No, the clue is in the title of the campaign we are helping Totally Locally independent companies in the area.
QUESTION: Is it Totally Locally’s fight to try and stop, fight against Sainsbury’s?
No, at the end of the day we believe in free markets, don’t like protectionism, etc. However we will more than happily promote the good independent shops in the area , remind the people in Todmorden of the things that they already have, such as the market and the existing shops. The fact that these shops will support their local economy because they will spend profits, etc in the area and with local suppliers,etc.
It is difficult to defend the argument. What about if I need to do my shopping after the kids have gone to bed? Where can I get my groceries, soap, shampoo, etc?
This is the convenience factor and argument of Supermarkets. Now if the markets had their own shop which stayed open until late selling goods from the market and giving away free Incredible Edible vegetables, maybe there is a counter argument for this. But that is a whole different campaign…(hint!)
QUESTION: Will Sainsbury’s use local companies?
I am not sure that we can answer this really, however – I suspect that they will not use local architects for the design and build of a store, I would not expect local companies to be used for the build or fitting. Will the shelves simply be stocked by whatever central buyers believe is right for Sainsburys? Will there be any local produce?
Who will win the cleaning contact? Who will print the signage? Who will be asked to do the marketing around the area? Locally companies?…. I suspect not …Will the profits be reinvested into the area… I guess only if you are a shareholder that lives in the region…so we are left with the salaries that they will pay to local people.
QUESTION: But won’t Sainsburys create new jobs?
Yes, there will be new employment created in Todmorden by a Sainsburys open but at what price? Will the Market and other local shops suffer drops in revenue as a result. Probably which means that local shops will have reduced revenues which may mean laying off staff, reducing their spend with local suppliers due to slower stock turnaround, or potentially closing all together. Obviously this is something that Totally Locally isn’t too thrilled about if this happens.
So where does that leave us?
This is not an attack on Sainsbury’s by any means. I am sure that if we ran the Sainsbury’s company…or any other supermarket for that matter…we would look at doing a similar thing…but is it right for Todmorden? That is something only the people of Todmorden can answer. Is there a gap that the local shops don’t offer that Sainsbury’s does?
Totally Locally will always focus its energies on promoting good local independent businesses and wouldn’t back anything other than this… and we will help these businesses as much as we can in trying to attract people to spend a little more of their money in the local area.
We don’t try and dictate or preach to people about where they shop, we simply seek to remind them that there are great local shops in their area and urge them to try them out.
As I have always said, when I look back to my youth and the shops that I remember vividly they were all little independent shops with nooks and crannies to explore, filled with people that gave me suggestions, recognized me and were, plain and simply….nice.
Totally Locally Nigel
Please feel free to comment – that is what this is all about!
Some good points on both sides, same thing now started with Morrison’s and Elland….Interested to know what others think?
I use the market all the time now I am semi-retired, but it is no good for anyone at work all day because it is shut by the time you get there – long before most days – and my daughter with twin babies and a 3 year old has no chance getting a pushchair through and going to each stall – each time having to get out cash. Maybe the market should look at what customers want and why Sainsburys think it is a good place to come. The stallholders cannot have a high opinion of the service they offer if they think everyone will rush into the Supermarket as soon as it opens. So why do they think they are threatened? And what could they do about it other than moan about competition.
These are things that I’ve spoken of before. I love Todmorden Market (I love markets in general), but as I sit here still at work knowing I wont leave until 6.30, AND needing to get some food in, there’s only one place I can go.
I try to shop Totally Locally as much as possible, but sometimes you just can’t. It’s an issue I bring up with stall and shop owners. Times have changed and you must change to compete. That being said, I do know the great people of Tod Market are looking into it. Power to them, and lets all support them as much as possible. Tod is unique, and long may it stay that way.
I think that if the Market is to offer a viable alternative to a supermarket, then it needs to completely rethink how it works…
1. Working Hours need to be changed to accomodate working folk, or a decent alternative in the form of a shopping scheme. something on the lines of customers placing orders online, monies to be collected from a pre-payed account, and a ‘shopper/purchaser’ fulfilling the order and leaving it at a collection depot for the customer to collect in the evening.
2. Also, as happens on the continent, in places like verseilles, the shopper collects their porduce from the stall-holders, who label the puchasers with a barcode, then the customer can pay at a central checkout area..
whilst we all like to mooch around a market on a Saturday afternoon, at leisure, it can take ages to complete a few purchases…if the market wants to capture the custom of people who prefer the convenience of a supermarket then some of these things need to be addressed. It will be a hard slog organising such a scheme, but it would be worth it if it means that more customers are drawn to the market on the basis of these changes.
this is exactly what needs to be done. It’s a model I’d not heard f, but sounds interesting. My thoughts are that a shop that opened late night, selling product from stall holders (either manned by them themselves on a rota basis r employing someone) barcoded per stallholder. It would be more like the mini sainsbury’s local or the tesco metro. It will be hard work but it must be worth talking about. Chris
Not sure… I think the bottom line is that Sainsbury will take foot fall away from the Town. The new Netto is different it’s just across the road from the Market and people will come across the road. Morrisons is not a particularly big or dynamic supermarket but the new Sainsbury will be. It’s not just about the Market – it’s about all the other shops and cafes too. I don’t think other shops changing opening times will make much difference as I think they just won’t get enough customers to make it worthwhile in such a relatively small town.
I completely applaud your campaign, and agree on the issue of closing before people leave work to go home.
At the end of the day the supermarkets have always tapped into the idea of convenience shopping and in order to compete, markets have to offer the same convenience in terms of payment and opening times.
If the level of convenience was exactly the same then I dont think the supermarkets would thrive in smaller towns. I say this because it’s my experience that produce from local greengrocers, butchers, bakers etc… is far superior to that found in supermarkets and most butchers will be able to tell you exactly where their meat comes from. Forging partnerships with local farmers and growers would be the icing on the cake. Imagine asking a butcher where his meat comes from and he points out of the window points to a local farm and says ‘right over there’ the supermarkets would be blown out of the water.
I think Parking is an issue too (I’m not terribly familiar with Tod market) but having to walk 400 yards carrying 6 bags of shopping would certainly put me off, so a market side ‘pick up point’ where you can park for 10 minutes while you collect your pre ordered produce would be a great bonus.
So many valid points raised here, and here’s my two penneth!
I think the arguement would be completely different if Todmorden didn’t already have a supermarket – but it does, TWO in fact.
I like the idea of markets being flexible with their opening times, but aren’t the stalls usually run by just one or two people
– they just don’t have the flexibility to rota an army of staff to cover 18 hour trading days! I guess this is where the previous post about central purchasing and collection may come in – and if anywhere is perfect for trying this approach out, it’s Tod! That town has serious resilience to all the crap that’s been levelled at it in recent years from flooding and and image problem to dire economic neglect.
It’s not about taking on the big boys, giant killing Sainsbury’s – we’re cleverer than that – it’s about doing what we do best, diversifying, innovating and offering a genuinely commercial alternative to the norm. Come on Tod, let’s show ‘em how it’s done!
Peace x
It’s been pointed out that this is about the town centre, not just the market, which I understand completely. But as it stands that Market is seen as the hub of the town centre. All of these comments apply to the other shops around too. In the end it will be a joint effort that makes this town thrive no matter what happens about Sainsbury’s or any other supermarket.
Really like your site.
Sainsbury’s are building new stores all over the country.
Yes they are part of the modern economy – but all things in balance. Wach out how big a store they want to build – the bigger it is the more life it could suck out of a place.
Look at TESCOPOLY online if you want to get another opinion on supermarkets. If the Sainsbury’s will be good for the area fine, but if not, believe you can stop them or scale it back – we did in Crosby…. see blog ‘abettercrosby’
THANKS JAMIE, WE’LL LOOK INTO THAT. TESCOPOLY ARE LOOKING AT HOW THEY CAN DO SOME PROMOTION ABOUT US AS THEY LIKE WHAT WE DO. IT’S A GREAT SITE, AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO VISIT IT. THERE’S MASSIVE FOOD FOR THOUGHT THERE.
http://WWW.TESCOPOLY.COM
SORRY THAT’S http://WWW.TESCOPOLY.ORG
Could the market not have one day when they open late, say 11ish and stay open until 7ish at night.Stalls could cook light suppers for people coming straight from work e.g hot dogs locally produced etc..This will then encourage people to buy the produce if it’s good!
[...] Locally (based in Tod) found themselves being spun as supporters after meeting the supermarket group and have since been trying to distance themselves while [...]
Hi Chris from Totally Locally.
We’re not based in Tod, and we cover all of Calderdale, though I use the market & cafes there regularly, preferring to travel 9 miles to buy my food than use the Tescos 1 mile away.
We don’t support supermarkets, but we are resigned to the fact that they now play a huge part in our country’s make-up. We are here to promote local independent businesses and to try & open people’s eyes to them, the effect to their town when they use them and how towns die when they don’t.
Sainsbury’s is absolutely not right for Tod. We agree on that. It would have a detriment to the town centre, the market and have a knock on effect on many local businesses that they support.
I personally (I can’t speak for the other 2 of the team) feel the leaflet in the Todmorden news to be a complete joke of the worst kind.
I’ve offered to design, for free, a leaflet countering it. Am awaiting reply.
Sainsbury’s don’t care about towns & little businesses, but then again neither do any other chains. It’s all numbers and profit & loss.
If Sainsbury’s is built and the people of Todmorden & Hebden Bridge (as I said at the meeting this is really a supermarket in Hebden Bridge by stealth) didn’t use it, it wouldn’t survive. If they protest then use it (if it is indeed built) then more fool them. The only way we can hope to counter a machine as big as Sainsbury’s is to A) fight it in the first place & b) tell people what happens if they use it instead of their local shops. That’s what we are doing in our small way.
We asked the Sainsbury’s rep if they would stock food produced in Tod, they said probably not. From my experience though, any small producer who takes a contract with the big 4 ends up having their prices slashed to the bone, to a point where they can’t produce to the quality they set out to achieve. Along the way they end up losing the small independents that supported them in the first place.
We have limited resources, we are 3 people working part time on 5 towns in Calderdale & all the villages in between.
We always prefer to speak the positive, we try to avoid the negative.
It’s a big fight we bite off the bits we can chew, and hopefully we make a positive difference to our towns.
I would say to anyone, don’t just sit and criticise, get up and do something about it. We did.
But the market is a dump.
FOR EXAMPLE; The elecrical shop in there stocks things in there thats been there for at least 7or 8 years & things that are massively outdated. The place isn’t that pleasant to walk around, Theres some really good stalls on occasionally, and they’re the ones that shine through. Some serious work need to go on in the market then more people would like to go there. As I’m a hairdresser I hear lots of views on this subject & and the majority of people really do thing the place needs a lot of TLS, and if it doesn’t.. they will shop in a brand spanking new sainsburys.
If a Sainsbury’s in Tod is a supermarket for Hebden (by stealth), then surely part of the solution is to (a) encourage shoppers from Hebden to shop local in Tod (b) improve local food and grocery options for Hebden (currently underserved). Increasing food DELIVERY options across both towns is presumably part of the solution too? Loyalty schemes for this kind of service could add real value. Finally, it would be interesting to see which of the big retailers (Co-op?) might step up to the challenge of actively fostering / investing in local independent shops, markets and producers at a strategic level. And what about the role of local social enterprise in helping to develop food marketing and food processing in Calderdale? Maybe Hebden, Tod and Calderdale as a whole would be an interesting place to experiment with ideas like this?
There is no atempt at stealth … Sainsburys would have prefered to build the supermarket on the site of the old engineering works at Stubbing .. but Hebden said NO.. so hoist it to Tod .. makes no difference to CMBC as long as they get the 106 payments .. same as everything else Calderdale finishes at Hebden
some facts from a gov. study (1998) found that when a big supermarket opens the trade in local food shop goes down 13- 50%. The result is “the closure of some town centre food retailers; increases in vacancy levels; and a general decline in the quality of the environment of the centre.”
If I were you I’d fight this tooth and nail- and not just for your own town- for all the farmers sent bankrupt, and to combat climate change. Brighton now has over 40 chain supermarkets in a 3 mile radius of its pier… it’s been ruined.
Hi. I have just seen the news report on the TV about the proposed supermarket,You all need .to fight tooth and nail not to allow it happen. What ever Sainsbury says it WILL kill your town centre. A new Sainsbury was built in Matlock, Derbyshire and on the day of opening it killed Matlock town centre and its effect has spread to other local town centres such as Bakewell. If you dont believe me, just pick the phone up and talk to any trader in either of these two towns.